CHATKINSON #3: In Conversation with Laura de Barra

Talking to author, Cork Goddess and No. 1 bestseller about DIY, upskilling, taking care of your clothes and finding your niche.

This segment has been on hiatus, but finally(!) CHATKINSON is back. It’s about time I got back to doing what I do best: chatting with really cool people. I couldn’t be more buzzed to share this discussion with Laura de Barra. She’s glam, gorge, and an absolute diamond. I was introduced to Laura at a Gentlewoman event by our mutual friend Lucy, who was sure we’d get on like a house on fire. Naturally she was right! A gay Glaswegian and a glam goddess from Cork? Are you kidding? Like a moth to a flame, honey.

Portrait of Laura De Barra by Gráinne Quinlan

Laura de Barra is a property developer, author and illustrator from Cork, Ireland. Online and in her books she shares her wealth of knowledge about DIY, decor and fashion in captivating and digestible ways. Her passion, charm and effervescent personality make topics that normally fill you with dread seem manageable and actually empowering to tackle head on. On Instagram and TikTok (@lauradebarra) she regularly shares wisdom through tips on everything from how to keep your whites extra bright to cleaning water marks off your shower to fixing the washing machine. All three of her books have been No.1 Bestsellers - and they make incredible gifts for your bestie (or yourself) as they are beautiful, brilliant and full of tools to help you take care of your space and your clothes. Gaff Goddess is the guide on how to tackle common DIY problems in your home. Décor Galore offers practical guidance on how to really make your space your own. And only published last month, her latest, Garment Goddess is the book you need to take better care of your clothes and make smarter choices when you shop. Stylish and sustainable need not be mutually exclusive terms.

The conversation below took place virtually. It has been edited and condensed for clarity.

David Atkinson: For those of you who aren't familiar with your work and what you do, how would you describe it?

Laura de Barra: For my /the books, I pull on things that I learn at work, which is managing and buying properties, doing them up, making them better for tenants.

I have a really strict way of working, it involves me doing a lot of repairs and stuff like that. For my books, I like to fill grey areas in our lives because the generation above us didn't live the same as us or have the same things. There are these areas in our lives where there’s a lot of judgement for not knowing and we don't learn about them until it's an emergency or it's something that's wasting our money. I basically like to have accessible, easy to digest, useful information that people can save money and live more sustainably without having to wear a potato sack!

I want to be like: there's a space here for people, doesn't matter what gender, doesn't matter what you're into, none of that matters. If you just want to learn and upskill, this is the space that you can come into and we're all friends here.

DA: Yeah, I love that. There’s such a sense of “why don't I know this?” or “I should know this”. I never thought about it as a generational thing, but I think that's really interesting.

LdB: Things have changed! As well as how we consume information. There's this thing now where we only will Google the problem, not the wider thing. I love to know this is how the washing machine works. I always say, like, I don't want to give you a martini. I want to teach you to make a martini. So, then, you make the martini to your taste.

That's what I find important. So you can say: I'm learning with the washing machine. And if another part of it breaks, I know what I'm looking at and why.

I write the books that I wish were around for me when I was learning about DIY. I wish that book was there with all the fashion illustrations and Housewives references. I wanted it to be Bette Midler and Cher going for a cocktail and being like, what the heck is silicone about? It takes something daunting, makes it really digestible - like a sweet treat, rather than, you know, a banana. If you know everything and you fuck it up, you can say: I know why that went wrong. I know what I need to do next!

DA: Yeah. I guess the accessibility of it is really important, especially for things that people feel are a bit intimidating.

With decorating as well, I've got some friends who are just really good at it and always have been. And I used to think - oh, they just know something that I don't know. Your work can help me learn. Like, I know I like this [example room] How do I take my space and make it a little bit more like that?

LdB: Yeah, what's the thing? Is it the fact that there's a tone that makes it feel relaxed? Is everything lower down in the room? I always say to people: seek the silhouette. What are you describing to someone who can't see it.

As a feeling in the room, it feels spacious, the couches are really low. And then you realize it's got nothing to do with what you thought you couldn't have. It's more vibe and tone. And I think as well, interiors are usually discussed by very rich people. You know, it's somebody saying: “darling, oversized everything”. But they're forgetting: who are you in the space? Decor is all about the roots of the rooms when you're walking through them, and that makes a massive difference, learning about all of that.

There's a fan base for the books that I think are just so funny. There are men who are 60 plus. Straight men as well. Obviously there’s a big gay audience, female audience. There’s non-binary people and there’s a space where it's not really about them being non binary. They can just join in with this. I love it because it’s inclusive.

DA: It's so inclusive! The whole, the movement (let's call your work a movement) is an inclusive one.

LdB: I think what it is, is I'm not going to tell you how to be you, but I'm going to tell you how to make being you a bit easier when it comes to your washing machine breaking.

I don't care how you dress. It's all up to you. Like, I am so tacky. I don't have good taste, but I love my taste. Do you get what I mean? I'm not going to tell people that your room should look a certain way, but I'm going to say if you're buying a rug, these are the things that make a rug last longer.

People will say, my dad wants to send you a voice note. And I'm like, Listen, tell Seamus to send the voicenotes! And then they're always giving it: “First thing I'm gonna say is fair play to you.” That's what they always have to say. “I'm loving it.”

And then they say: “I always had a keen interest in this, but you get to a stage as a man where you stop being taught.” And then One guy said: “you get older and you're of no use to anybody once you stop working. So no one cares, you're not bringing in the paycheck, you're not doing whatever. But reading this like, I'm learning and I'm going round the house correcting bits.” And this is so nice that people feel they're getting value at different stages of their life. That's what it's about. It's about just being you and learning some bits. What I don't like is when {you go to something} and everyone looks the same! You never fit in for them, and I always feel like such an outsider, so I never want the space to be like that.

DA: Yeah, I love that. Sometimes people don't know things and it's not their fault. And I think that feels like coming from that place of compassion is really, really important. There's something so authentic behind what you do.

I guess there's an art to understanding your home and how to make your home suitable to you. That can be applicable to anyone regardless of their style or income and that's what I think makes it so cool.

LdB: Thank you. We grew up with not very much money and also being resourceful. That's one main thing, is interior/DIY is all about buy the best... It's constant consumption, which I'm just not into. It does my head in, this decorating a room for Instagram three times a year.

You know, the way I always think there’s going to be a Black Mirror episode where people, when you see them, they have a tally of how much they've added to landfill as a person. I mean, we'd all fail a bit, but sometimes this kind of influencing of consumption is mad.

With the books, Decor Galore, in one section, you are not to spend a single penny and you're not allowed to go to the next stage (of spending money) until you've learned. Which I think is important because it's the free stuff that matters. Free stuff is strategy, you know?

DA: Yeah, so interesting. And I think we actually had a bit of a chat about this before, but I do think that kind of comes into the art of things. Actually getting into the real understanding it and not just engaging on that top line/surface level, which I think is quite common now with social media. People, if they want to be a writer they want to just be posting all the time but it's like actually you need to go away and figure out what works for you. You need to be reading loads, you need to figure out how to write a sentence, what makes a sentence good, or what is it you like about this thing that you read and how can you learn to cultivate that within yourself. Which as you say, a lot of that skill work is is free!

LdB: Any creative process is like a clock and from like 12 to 3 (Usually like 4 or 5 to me) you're doing fuck all, you sound like such an idiot, you're trying all these things and you're failing. You cannot progress around to the rest of the clock without doing that hard bit and then getting through it. Sometimes people don't understand that I think that you have to and that's for everything. That's even if I was to sit down now and write an article about silicone-ing a bath.

You're muddled for the first little bit, and then you get your flow after a while. But you have to go away and do those things, you know. Even just when you're going for a walk, that space. Forget the optics of stuff. That just comes when you have to fucking promote the thing.

DA: You have the term SHE-IY trademarked. This is something I'm obsessed with, by the way. I think that people will assume that it's for one reason, but it's actually for a different one. Can you tell me a bit more about that?

LdB: I was starting out in DIY, I had a private Instagram account when I got approached for the book. I didn't realize someone from Penguin was on my Instagram account. And I was just sharing bits I was doing at work every day. And then people were like, Oh, will you add my friend in?

It was kind of like a dinner party, knocks on the door. And then I started joking and because I had a bit more confidence, I thought, I can say whatever I want. It's DIY, being very like camp and funny.

I don't really believe in gender in DIY. So I was joking about like, dumb girls doing it, tongue in cheek. But then as it started to get bigger and the book deal came, I was like, ah, someone could take this (SHE-IY)and use it for the exact reasons that I hate being in DIY.

It's got great legs in marketing. Push us away and further make this divide of gender in DIY. So I'm not going to do anything with it. Cause usually you trademark to then make money. I have a lot of men saying: Oh, you only did that to make money.

No! I did it to stop somebody profiting from further scaring women like me who felt like they weren't allowed to be part of things. And also male friends of mine are like, I can't fucking ask because people expect me to know. How masculine I am is being questioned just because of this. So I just took it off the table from anyone.

DA: You’re so right. Especially in this climate, that's the sort of thing that they would be charging so much money for girly tools or whatever. Like it would be pink. It would cost more than you needed. It probably wouldn't be very good. So you've kind of swooped in and said, actually, you know what, I'm going to keep this and it can be mine and I own the narrative as well. You can make it the fun thing that you know that it is, which is a bit of tongue in cheek, right?

We're laughing at the gendered assumptions!

LdB: It's just like, I can't believe people are taking this seriously…

DA: But that's fun as well. Knowing your audience! The girls that get it, get it…

LdB: I always say, if you don't get it, it's not for you.

DA: I know that you have a background in fashion (Edinburgh - Manufacturing). Does that inform your garment work?

LdB: I was taught pattern cutting and dressmaking by my grandmother. Then I learned more at my pre college course, and then at uni. It was all about the integrity of the garment and the performance of the fibers and the performance of the seams really mattered. It was always ingrained in me that the fabric has to match the intention for the garment.

I was working in supply for high street stores when fast fashion really came about and we'd be going, Oh, let's not make it in cotton. It's too expensive. Let's make this work shirt in polyester, but then the person is going to sweat the whole time. So I think reverse engineering, like how to get things really cheap, it shows you. When I realized that you're stripping the integrity out of the garment for just the visual. On the factory floor is where you kind of learn a lot of that shit!

I also love when you see something interesting come out about fabrics or seaming or production and stuff like that, I'll just gobble it up.

DA: Oh my God. That's amazing. You are taking all that knowledge that you've got from your whole life, like learning from your grandmother, from your degree, from being on the factory floor.

And then sharing it with us in a really accessible way.

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DA: You’re obviously highly skilled in sorting problems which have a practical solution. How do you find it when there is a problem that’s out of your control?

LdB: I feel like zooming out from the problem helps me a lot because sometimes I'm in fight or flight. I used to get such bad anxiety. Oh, and the advice that if you just drink a pint of water instantly, everything feels better.

DA: Oh my god, yeah.

LdB: Because I'm constantly dehydrated. [every time I have a big drink of water] my body says: we'll live another 10 years!

I've worked with people who really didn't want like a female there. And I would find it really difficult working with them. And if I kind of zoom out from it and okay, they're a cog in me getting to this, it's almost like a train line. I can think, that person is on the train, or maybe they might be the conductor of the train or whatever. I can suck that up and get onto the next stage.

Zooming out helps. My husband and I were hit with a load of bad news, parents dying, all that stuff. It was difficult. Our wedding kept being canceled, but we didn't really give a shit about the wedding. It was more the people who were quickly dying, who weren't able to come. It definitely changed how I think as a person. Even when we got news about people were like very ill, it was stepping back and thinking: how much time do we have? How do I want that time to be filled? How can I logistically make it work to go back and see them more? And I think it gives me a lot more control in the situation because before I used to feel like the problem was coming at me.

DA: I think that when we talk about control, when it comes to feelings, sometimes it's used in a negative way or people try and control things that they can't control. What you just described there to me is reminding me of my old Therapist’s favourite, the serenity prayer: God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can, and the wisdom to know the difference.

LdB: I’ve heard it - it’s really good.

DA: There's something happening, i. e. the problem that I have no agency over, but there are things that I can control, i. e., can I see them more, can I, can I give this, we're only going to have so much time, so let's make the best use of that time. I think that that feels like a more integrated understanding of your feelings because like obviously there's some things that you can't control.

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DA: I want to talk a little bit about Garment Goddess, which is your latest book, which I’m really excited about. I love the approach in this because it seems to me like there's a real dedication to actually being sustainable. One of my issues with sustainability and how we talk about it is that quite often it's still focused on a heightened level of consumption but from sustainable brands. But we actually have to change the culture of how we are buying and and also, as your work speaks to, how we take care of the things we have.

LdB: I think you hit the nail on the head with sustainability.

A lot of times, sustainable, it's still consumption, right? I remember this amazing woman that was at a lecture saying it's like Russian dolls in fashion. You solve one problem and another doll comes out. Oh, it's recyclable cotton..but the village that it's grown in has been absolutely destroyed - but it's recyclable. That kind of perfectionism in sustainability is just impossible. And I think what I always wanted people to realize is the most sustainable thing that you can have in your entire life is something you already own.

The most sustainable garment there is - it’s already in your wardrobe, or it's been in someone else's wardrobe. But there's so much limitation in fashion, eg sizing. You know, when people say: don't buy from Shein, they do this, they do that. Talk to someone who's a size 24 in my hometown where there's no stores, no one gives a fuck about where she can get her clothes from and she can get this delivered.

Do you think she wants to be wearing a two pound polyester dress? No. But then you have people who have basically had accessible fashion of good quality (second hand) snatched from under their noses because people who want to wear it once have taken the five pound winter coat that they would have bought for their child.

You have to know this space as well as your place in it. And I think with sustainability, the consumption side of it, I see a lot of people saying: it's fine, it's Depop, so I can buy 10 outfits a week. But if you buy (less+) well in the first place, you want to look after it.

And buying well can be buying something for a fiver. It doesn't mean that it has to be Prada.

DA: Depop is not a total solution to sustainability issues in fashion.

LdB: Well, descriptions are unsustainable. There's not full measurements done on them. They should have a rule that you have to give full descriptions, you have to lay the garment flat and give the measurement for absolutely everything.

So people are able to measure it against other garments and they're more likely to wear the product. There should be full details on the fabric. There should be details on how much it's been washed. There should be details. You have to put up three flaws per garment, et cetera. That is a sustainable way to have Depop going, you know.

DA: I think that's really interesting because I think because, the resurgence of secondhand fashion is so big at the moment, it's easy to look at it as something that doesn't have any flaws. But it does!

LdB: And sustainability. like also like It's a buzzword now in fashion. It's not real.

DA: it's used to the point that it doesn't mean anything. And that is part of the reason why I do enjoy this content that comes out now where they call out the brands for like saying it, but not really living up to it. But some of that content is maybe not necessarily accessible to me. I agree with the sentiment, but I can't really understand what it means.

LdB: Yeah, in one part of the book, I break down - there are these certain words that you're not allowed to put on garments unless it is like the absolute T.

So if you buy a cotton t shirt, if you just buy it in long staple cotton, it will last 20 times longer than if you don't. People don't know what they're buying.

DA: It's mad, if you don't understand, you're going to get duped all the time. I feel my way of thinking was: okay, well, you know, something cheap, from the high street is shit, it's better to get that other one because if it costs more that means it must be better. Not always true. And companies are more bothered about profits!

I guess this is the other word that I thought about a lot when I was doing research for this is you really are democratizing knowledge. Making it accessible to everyone.

LdB: Yeah, and people come on screen and they're like, this is such great quality. Look at this hand feel. This is so amazing. Yeah. Like you've got somebody saying this is great quality, but no one's looking going, okay, I love this person's style, but how do they know what good quality is? What do they mean by good quality?

You want to be able to look and say, I do love this top on her. She looks great. She usually wears things I like. Is it extra long cotton? No, it's not. Is it long staple this? Does it have like an extra layer of stitching? Cause there's loads of brands out there now that are cosplaying quality. But if you know quality, you will not be duped.

DA: I love that.

DA: Something that really stands out to me, both in your character, but also across your work, is that you have a really strong sense of self. You know who you are, you know what you like, and you know what you do. Also, the other flip side to that is you know who you're not and what you're not doing. I think that that's really important for people as they're starting to figure out who they are and what they want to do.

I wondered if you have any advice for people who are trying to find their niche or find their way. I was very struck by the fact that you have a sense of confidence to say: if it's not for you it's not for you! I think that people often try and appeal too broadly to everyone, and then that often dilutes the work that they do.

LdB: And it knocks your confidence! If you're trying to please someone who just doesn't get it, you're always going to feel shit about what you produce. And then you might produce something based on their taste and not your taste. I was never cool at fashion uni. But when we got to graduate fashion week, I got nominated for one of The big prizes. I think your passion and what you're genuinely into will come across. You might just be facing in the wrong direction. It’s just one sentence at a party where someone goes, Oh my God, I know exactly what you mean there. You become friends with that person. Whereas if you had spent that sentence on someone trying to impress someone who you're not even into them yourself, you could have missed on that.

When I started writing the books, it's what really grew my confidence because I realized there's people out there like me. And then when I went to the events, I thought, fuck, we're all so different, but that's where the beauty is.

If you feel like you're not being understood where you are right now, it's just the wrong audience. Stay true to yourself. I spent a lot of time where I was on my own writing these books. A lot of people don't (or won’t) get it.

When I first came out with Gaff Goddess, people were going fucking crazy. I had to be so detailed because people were dying to catch me out. People were like, Well, tell me then on the fuse board, if you're doing X, Y, and Z, I had to know fuse boards to a level that a man wouldn't have to know them.

But the right audience starts to shine brighter and brighter and brighter. If you don't start answering that little call inside, you're always going to be putting the energy on the wrong person. Answer the call and then it just starts.

DA: Thank you, I really love that.

LdB: Look for signs. Just put yourself and your essence out there. People are dying for it. People are dying to meet you because they'll meet you and be like, you're like me. Oh my god! Sometimes you're going down an unlit path and all you need is like the other path to light up.

DA: Let’s do a couple of quick fire ones before we finish up. We're in London, you're obviously a Glam Gal, so I really want to know where you like to go for dinner and drinks.

LdB: Mangal 2 I absolutely love. they did our wedding, they're friends of ours. They are so good. Cause we did our first dates there! Anything Turkish.

If I'm drinking, I do love the Balcony bar at 100 Shoreditch at the very top.

DA: I will say, I almost want to gatekeep that.

LdB: One of my favorite things to do is like go to an old man's pub that has a carpet in it, where they have dry roasted peanuts, get a Guinness. The temperature is always good because everybody's always old in there and they feel the cold. The service is good. The girls toilets are barely ever used. Honestly, they're so good.

DA: Life hack! How would you describe your personal style in three words?

LdB: Do you know what? Your slutty aunt at a party.

DA: We'll allow it because like that's a really good answer. How would you describe your taste for interior style?

LdB: Your slag aunt at home.

DA: Ha, obsessed. All right, my love, thank you so much. I mean, the thing is, I knew this would be the way, but like I literally feel like I could talk to you all day.

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Thank you once again to the singular babe that is Laura de Barra. Send her some love on socials: Instagram and TikTok. And buy her brilliant books wherever you get yours! Gaff Goddess | Décor Galore | Garment Goddess

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